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Coffee, Cohiba's and Newcastle
Here's another excerpt from my book. It comes from the chapter: Coffee, Cohiba's and Newcastle
These are my thoughts. They don't represent any of the places I've ever been employed.
I get at the whole issue during the chapter but this is just to give you a taste. I'd love to hear your thoughts though. When I get the book blog set up I'm sure this will be the chapter with the most attention. Here goes...
My point is that if you are of age and you act responsibly and you’re not smoking something against the law I do not think there is anything wrong with drinking or smoking. Doing either in excess can be bad for you. But to be honest eating cheeseburgers in excess is probably worse for you. I think its funny that pastors can be morbidly obese and have completely unhealthy stress levels, neglect their families and have a ridiculous work-load but that’s considered part of the job. But if they have a beer with dinner or smoke a cigar with friends on occasion they are skating on the fringe of the dark side. It just seems to be pretty hypocritical.
I say lets try to be adults. Let’s start making grown up decisions. The issue is not black and white. There are times that it totally makes sense to refrain from doing something that would make others uncomfortable. There are other times were it would make all the sense in the world to celebrate or hang out with friends in this way. For some people like my parents the tension has caused them to totally abstain and I respect them greatly for that.
It’s just really weird to me that the most natural and deepest community I’ve ever shared with a group of people usually entailed doing all the things the church told me to stay away from growing up. Is that weird to anyone else?
Can of worms officially opened...any thoughts?
26 comments:
I completely agree. I was the daughter of a board member/deacon, and the church secretary... not exactly the same as PK but in a church the size of ours it was pretty much the same microscope. I finally realized that not everything people would criticize you for was really wrong. Interesting this being a grown up thing. Sadly it took me till almost 30 to figure it out... and some of it I'm still working out. Anyway, I wanted to speak up in agreement. I'm actually interested to know how many would disagree with you on this.
I couldn't agree more. It reminds me of the Pharisaic laws that didn't bring any freedom. I know that the "no drinking and smoking" idea among Christians is partially cultural, as well. Other countries that have adopted American Christianity abide by the same ideas, but others incorporate drinking into their times of fellowship and community. It would be interesting to study how Christians globally handle these issues....that would have to be another book, though :)
I don't remember how long ago this was but I was hanging out with a group of girls at the stirring and a girl who was smoking walked by. No big deal. But then someone says "it's always weird to see someone smoking at church". I didn't get it. What like now these people aren't allowed to go to church with you because they smoke. I don't think that is what she meant but I thought her comment about the girl smoking was Weider than the girl actually smoking.
i think the united states is one of the only countries to have a negative stigma attached to drinking. from prohibition to the womens christian temperance union. it ruined our perception of alcohol and married it to the idea that alcohol, in and of itself, is sinful. the idea that Jesus didn't really drink wine (jimmy swaggart still preaches about this today) and that there are biblical prohibitions against drinking of any sort are just hold-overs from the early part of the 1900's. they have more to do with political vote getting and less to do with what the Bible actually say. drink or don't drink. moderation is the key and being sensitive of who we are doing it with.
porch ministry anyone?
and...if the Church spent less time focusing on drinking and smoking and more time preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments we would be much better off. :)
for the record, the reformed love their beer :)
I agree. You rock! We should be loving up people. This is complex... would love to talk.... things get distorted and distressed when one has addictive things in the background which can tempt.... sometimes abstaining is necessary to keep from falling, but that is not what you were talking about..... Like I said- I agree with you.
I totally disagree!!!
My body is a temple (more to some than others) and I don't want to pollute it with the devil's drink or the horribly smell of lucifer's pipe.
The other night Les was singing to Aks at bedtime - Hush little baby don't say a word Mama's gonna buy you a... Les forgot what Mama was gonna buy, and Aksel, my 3 year old say, "A Draaaank" I think we're in the running for parents of the year.
I got money in da bank, whatcha think bout dat.
Long live dry gin martinis, marlboro milds, and here's to the original porch ministry.
I don't really follow that perspective.
without offending you is it safe to say that analogy doesn't really work? there are way to many variables. hereditary cholesterol levels and thyroid problems, and injuries are just a few. A glutton isn't necessarily overweight. It's more of a lifestyle issue to me.
and why a pastor?
I've never known it "normal" for a Pastor/leader to live a life that looked like what you mentioned. When I say normal, I'm talking about the edicts of scripture. I do however think you are comparing two completely different things. Drinking and smoking are far greater even in small doses than the comparison of eating a hamburger.
It hasn't been proven that you can jump on a treadmill and exercise lung cancer away...
Glutenous living is discouraged in scripture. And if people are justifying a Pastor with such a living pattern they should be ashamed of themselves.
As for drinking and smoking, I just leave it alone. I know what scripture says about it. But it seems that people want more justification. It's like they are a bunch of cattle crammed up against a gate waiting for someone to justify them. I personally don't want anything to do with opening that gate. People misinterpret words all the time, and they can take things the wrong way. I wouldn't want that blood on my hands.
I think it's good for the Church to promote no drinking and smoking. I say smoking because it seems to go hand in hand with drinking. I'll tell you one thing, if it ever gets to the point where people recognize the church for saying it is ok, who do you think people will blame when Little billy gets hit by a car full of church interns that are coming home from the bar. Can you imagine how long Christians would have to explain that?
I know lots of good Christian people that like to kick back a few. The funny thing is they say they never get drunk and it's all about the sweet great taste..... yeah right. So, there you have even more of a justification. This reflects huge on one thing alone. The church. I'd I think we should be more sensitive to that.
who is the Historical Revisionist above? looks like he's been reading Howard Zinn....
Howard Zinn is awesome.
And I'm of the opinion that what people do with their own lives in their own time is their business, not mine. Try to be reasonable and find some balance, but seriously, I don't understand why people want to make such a huge deal about things that are, in my opinion, so trivial. If you want to make a huge deal about something, choose something that is a big deal- genocide, natural disasters, orphans, whatever you have a passion for, but try putting your energy toward something that you can actually make a difference with. (What would the church look like then, if we focused on big, human issues, instead of arguing within ourselves, about things like smoking and drinking? Pouring out love instead of nit picking?)
That was my point.. We cant enter in to new ideas on things like drinking and smoking.. because we'll be the ones blamed when mishaps arise. Feel me?
Howard Zinn is a historical revisionist.a admitted socialist and he loves to rewrite history how it didn't happen. He takes hearsay and story lines and extracts them into his books. He makes some good points, but the majority of his literature is anti-american, or at least against American tradition.
I think this life was meant to be enjoyed. I think it honoring to cherish the goodness of his creation. A good buzz from a couple of drinks and the short sweet satisfaction of that first inhale is God's common grace to mankind.
Psalm 104:14-15 (English Standard Version)
14You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate,that he may bring forth food from the earth
15and wine to gladden the heart of man,oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
Jeff Yoder
not Leslie as the heading might say
More to the point, you and I never did have that cigar and glass o' wine before you split for No Cal...
I'm just sayin'
You gotta make sure that them deacons and bishops aren't given to wine and strong drink. Thank God i'm neither.
I'll have another barkeep
Out
first, how was i being revisionist?
prohibition was pushed by religious fervor. am i wrong?
second,
howard zinn looks at history from a different perspective and he IS NOT anti-american in any way shape or form. that is making his views of history into a charicature...albeit a right-wing one.
the american tradition? lets talk about that tradition...
slavery. military abuses. the slaughter and corralling of native americans. manifest destiny without morals. the imprisonment of japanese US CITIZEN. women can't vote. minorities can't vote. segregation. more slavery. power, corruption and lies. his writing is a promotion of what WE shouldn't be doing today...we should be using history as a guidepost, a tool to learn from. our politicians today don't know anything of US History outside of a filtered, watered down "manifest destiny" utopia they think occurred.
being UN-american is viewing the events of the past and not changing them or learning from them. great thing have happened in our history. amazing stories of triumph and heroism have happened here...i am thankful for them...but don't call telling the truth about our past revisionist. it is the very people who wish to silence criticism of our past which are the revisionists.
play nice boys! I like the back and forth but make sure to keep the love. This blog is a clowning free zone!
My point was we shouldn't even consider talking about being sensitive to who we do it with. This justifies it to those that are looking for justification. Whether you marginalize it with limits you are still giving justification. And to me that is very dangerous.
As far as Howard Zinn, we are entitled to our opinions. However I will add that Zinn has been proven wrong over and over again. But I will not use Dan's forum to continue any sort of debate. I'll probably blog about it later when I feel like it. and anyone is more than welcome to comment on it. I just want to be clear on what my focus was as well as sensitive to Dan's boldness in sharing his thoughts on his upcoming book.
i think its a little ridiculous that people will argue over this stuff. Im not saying i'm any better because i have complained and debated with people over just as many dumb thing. But instead of fighting with your brother over a miniscule thing like to drink or not to drink, Do something productive with your time.If you are constantly arguing with other followers and neglecting the whole reason we are here then that is where i say the problem lies. I don't think the problem is should i have a beer or not. To me having a drink and hanging out with people at a bar gives me much more of an opportunity to reach people than i would normally. It gives me an opportunity to prove that not ALL christians are hypocritical and we aren't all bible thumping people(not saying all followers of jesus are this way, But i am saying a lot of people who have been hurt by the christian community feel this way. ) So weather you drink or don't, honor that difference. Neither is WRONG its just different. I will bring the people at the bar to the stirring and you can bring the people wherever you hangout at to the stirring.
sorry dan...i enjoy the discussion but no hard feelings. :)
i love it...keep it comin...
In reading the comments here, I agree with Tyler that in the grand scheme of things this is a miniscule issue that is largely relegated to American Christians.
American Baptists wonder they should have beer with pizza...German Baptists wonder if it should be light or dark beer.
I'm closin' up this post. Thanks for the thoughts. Go buy the book and wrestle with the issues!
so you and your wife wanna go out to Carnegies sometime and have a beer with Team Coverdale? ... :)
beer is the devil's juice ... period ...
MMMMMMMMM...devils juice....
In response to the blog which used the verse in psalms 104 to support the use of beer and cigarettes. The problem then arises if the line is not there then what is wrong with pot? It is natural and comes from the Earth and God alone created it, it is healthier for you than cigarettes and less altering than beer. Spoken from experience, you need to make a stand. For me as a christian I make a judgement call when and who I drink with. It is hard to be distinctively different if you are just haveing not as many beers as your unsaved friends or only bumming cigarettes or cigars off the regular smokers. This gives them validation that there addictions are ok. I do agree that we have freedom in Christ but why would we use that freedom to flirt with two issues that so easily entangle so many destroying there freedom. Especially coming from a pastor who will be held to a higher standard. You can tell just by this post that it confuses your flock to see your opinion although most agree with you. And as far as being divisive point of trivial discussion instead of genocide, natural disasters etc. I do not understand the thinking that we can do more about genocide than a personal life decision. I dont think we should preach fire and brimestone but I want my kids to know that there pastor who will foster there spiritual life will not be promoting responsible smoking, what if Zeke starts to smoke because he saw dad and a friend on the porch. Nicotine is more addicting than heroin and is the number one killer in america. Kids are much more likely to start smoking if they know someone who does. It is not so innocient, In the medical field I see people all the time that come in with lung cancer and are having heart attacks because of smoking. All started with that first drag. The truth is I can handle these issues with moderation but as a pastor someone who states he has been called by God to increase the Kingdom of God you are responsible for the way people even interperate your life, that is why it is better for you to avoid the apperarce of evil all together. That is the difference between a pator and the rest of us while we are held to a higher standard yours is even higher. I don't want to be hypocritial because I enjoy alcohol in moderation but you are exposing a slippery slope and not all your followers will be as strong as you. I would love to have a beer with you as my brother but as my pastor it would be different. As for followers I think we should listen to the Holy Spirit but for Pastors it is more black and white. James 3:1. What matters more than any of this is that we love one another. I love Dan and throug him the Stirring and do not want to cause any disruption but coming from someone who has overcome and still have many frinds entangled in smoking and drinking, that I fell I had to say that I feel your position on this subject is dangerous.
Love Little Bro
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