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Donald Miller is praying at the DNC
I like Miller and I like what he had to say in this article.
Sums up a lot of what I think about polarizing issues.
I'd love to hear your thoughts. Be nice!
Monday, August 25, 2008
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31 comments:
that's pretty powerful my man...
"If your asked to pray... Then you pray"
I kind of hope that our generation blows up the two party system completely. I grew up with the crazy conservative right... now I've experienced the (sometimes wacky) left. Two sides of the same coin. I have yet to be convinced that national level politics isn't anything other than a lot of hot air. It's so easy to say all the right things... but why is it so hard to actually get feet on the ground and DO them?
that anonymous person is me.. Haha. My bad
"I make these requests in the name of Your son Jesus, who gave his own life against the forces of injustice.
Let Him be our example…Amen"
WORD!
his thoughts on the "TWO ISSUES" party were so spot on, this guy gets it. i was contemplating this today, what a coincidence. thanks for the link.
Seeing how my last comment was deleted..
Props to Cameron Strang.. there's a dude with some wisdom...
there will always be "polarizing" issues...and as christians we must ultimately realize that only God and His power can soften the hearts and minds of mankind towards these issues. abortion should be outlawed...and i will fight for that to happen but i realize that mankind is wicked and any "political" action that is also a spiritual issue (which i believe abortion is) must be dealt with in prayer and love.
i think the main problem i have with a lot of christians and their politics is this: i don't believe you can be a christian and be for abortion in any circumstance. it (abortion, just like murder, adultery, etc) is totally against God and His Word. i hear more and more christians say "it isn't the only issue" and "what about the mothers life" etc...abortion is NOT the ONLY issues but it is a LIFE issues. as christians we cannot be in support of abortion at an time...and yes, that is unpopular and the world will think we are stupid/wrong/close-minded etc...
oh well...
I agree with you Josh...totally. I just don't think a president being pro-life does anything. We've had one for eight years and it hasn't done a thing. You can't legislate morality. I'm completely pro-life (just like you) which means I'm against war and against killing the unborn. There's enough people in the world that follow Jesus that we could adopt all the unwanted babies in the world. To me that feels proactive. Sandwich board signs with pictures of aborted babies and fighting for legislature feels like coming at the issue from the wrong angle. I totally appreciate your stance though. Thanks for the thoughts.
Gosh, you said be nice, so I wasn’t posting anything because I know I can be a jerk. But, this whole thing has been rolling around in my head for a couple of days and I have to get it out. First off Dan, I love you and I what I’m going to say is meant for dialogue and not bashing or one-upmanship . I have two disagreements with your post above.
1. I would disagree that voting for someone who supports abortion or does not support abortion is inconsequential because they would be inefficient to do anything about it, whether to increase or decrease the availability of abortions. And I would disagree that this inefficiency is trumped by the efficiency to do “good” in other areas of society.
If one could establish a measurement of horrible things that people do, I would say that abortion is up there with child slavery and child pornography. Let’s say, hypothetically, you had a candidate who supported either of the two latter issues, and even voted to either hinder the reduction of or even expand slavery or child pornography, but made sure that those children and their parents had healthcare. Does his limited concern over the parents’ healthcare hold more weight than that fact that he supports their right to exploit or sell their children? As a kid I remember saying a word over and over again in my head, or out loud, so many times that it sounded funny and not like the word at all or it somehow lost its meaning. Is that what happened with abortion? Has the sting of its inhumanity become numb because we have used the word so much? I would hope that in our psyche we would be able to have equal mental gag reflexes to the term, ’women’s right to choose’ as we would to someone’s right to own someone or to exploit children through pornography.
2.That morality cannot be legislated.
I remember using this line with a friend of mine and believing it whole heartedly. But they pointed out to me that morality is legislated. Thou shall not steal, Thou shall not commit murder… Not only has the Gospel changed the lives of believers, but it has also changed culture. Especially Western culture, even through their laws. Morality is constantly being legislated and regulated. From murder to recycling. I believe that all governments are subject to the reign of Christ. This is were we can disagree, whether Christ is currently reigning or whether that day is in the future, but it is difficult for me to understand your point that morality can not be legislated.
Ok, done, hopefully I was nice enough;)
Don Miller is a tool.
This is my not nice post.
Go ahead you can "Juan" me.
Looking at the total death count of "innocent" children dieing, I can't see how someone would stand in support of their life and then turn to support someone that stands for their death..
Thinking they will "actually" make the difference in the latter is just ignorance to me.. and I can just point the finger back after it.. (and mark my words, Obama will fail to keep his so-called promises) takes place.... With all the avenues in this world that help "maintain" life... We as Christians should make sure that in any of the "availabilities" to "stand" firm in what we believe, and what we know to be true. Even if it is the minority... even if it seems to be at a standstill down one of those avenues.... There is no compromise...
With war... thats simple to me... our draft isn't forced... Anyone that compares that to abortion needs to wise up.. As much as I agree.. war totally sucks.. But then again we have seen our God use it... We haven't seen our God kill millions of babies.. So if I weigh the two, I see an extreme difference. Overall it's comparing apples to oranges..
Let me make things clear... I'm not your guy with the crazy sign,standing out in front of a clinic, stomping up and down the street, sweating profusely and angered toward women... that's retarded...
With anyone wanting to make the right choice.. and vote for the candidate that is closest to earth.. We should all be willing to look beyond the promises they spew from their lips.. promising us the moon and the stars..
I would recommend to whomever that wants to do so.... they pull their head out of the dirt and educate themselves on both factors.....
Like I said.. Donald Miller isn't on the ticket.. and I agree with Yoder in the sense that he is a tool.. Not from his character.. but from the standpoint that the Obama campaign is working fervently to pull the wool over everyones eyes... He's such a poor-sport he is now starting to bring race into things.. which in fact.. Micheal Jackson is more black than Obama...
Former Indiana Rep. Tim Roemer, a pro-life Obama backer, said the Democratic group is playing politics.
People from the crazy left have abandoned their messiah and are extremely perturbed that he (Obama) has shifted to a more neutral stance.. What a quick change of character.. kinda tells me he's just catering to "special interests" until he is president... then all hell is going to break loose... hint hint.. Pelosi...
It's evident the Clinton's don't like the Obama's.. We can see that with the fit Willy threw about his speech at the DNC.. Not only that... but even things that Hilary said during her run against Obama... but I'm sure most didn't pay any attention to the details.. bandwagons are much easier...... Unity? Give me a break..
Dan..
what you're telling me is Mans law supersedes Gods law..
You're putting the cart before the horse..
Opps...
I forgot to mention another noticed difference..
Dan... you mention to Josh.. "I agree with you Josh...totally."
But then you turn and say...
"I totally appreciate YOUR stance though. Thanks for the thoughts."
Everything in the middle of these quotes is just a sour apple. If this is a rebuke... I'm doing it in love..It's hard for me to believe that someone with your testimony can say such a thing....
Clearly, Josh makes his stance from the commandments and attributes of God's character... He sets aside his emotion.. lays down Bono's book and picks up his Bible and prays.. I don't see anything that would define what he said as.."his" stance...Josh will understand what I mean by saying.. you can't just say.. "welp.. that's just your point of view."
We all have a lot to learn... and I'll admit I'm probably the one that falls short the most.. and with certain issues that arise in our nations, communities, churches and friendships, we sometimes cloud our vision with emotion, worldly views and even pride, missing the simple words of John The Baptist...
It's clear on how I feel about abortion as, I stated in my "Voice For The Voiceless" blogs.. but, I'm willing to take a few steps back and come along side someone that is standing with the "line" between their legs.. You can't have your cake and eat it too brother..
But what if the "sandwich board guy" and the horrific depiction of barbarism that abortion is saved one innocent life??? Is he or his message less relevant? Remember what Jesus himself said: John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."
The cross and it's message will always be a stumbling block. It will never be popular or pretty. God's laws are not easy and they are definitely not up for debate or interpretation. I would stand up with the "sandwich board guy" before I would stand up with the DNC, that is fo' sho'.
I think that's the problem with a lot of Churches/Christians... making things "popular and pretty" for the sinner..
i think my main problem is this:
barack obama may or may not have good ideas about poverty or peace. he talks about helping the poor, dealing with hunger, saving the enviroment etc...all of which we would agree on "ends" wise. we, especially as Christians, would not always agree on the means to which we got those things but the ends we could see eye to eye on.
here is my problem. this man (obama) supports 3rd trimester abortions. unfettered abortion rights through the entire pregnancy. he also supports late term abortions where the "doctor" takes a knife, sucks out the brains of the baby and throws it's lifeless body into the trash can. obama also supports killing the baby that has survived the horrific abortion procedure. this is a baby that has been "aborted" or "born" yet has a pulse and brain activity. he says that preventing those deaths, although rare, would be chipping away at "roe-v-wade".
i didn't post this to be graphic...but abortion is horrific. most of us know that that post here...but here is a man who may have some good ideas about politics but who is flippant about LIFE issues...doesn't really care according to his voting record. this is why abortion is such an important issue. it doesn't mean that people who are pro-life are right all the time. it doesn't mean they are chosen by God to lead...i think it does show their character in regards to life and in regards to how much they value it. maybe mccain would be a horrible president but his stance on the sanctity of life is something i respect. same with bush and we all know i am not a fan of his for the most part. it speaks to the character of someone if they value life. so how do i vote for obama when he believes that the life of the unborn is equal to the trash can behind planned parenthood?
Thanks Josh for handing me the baton, Beijing Olympic's style. It needs to be said that in light of our complete agreement on the unborn life issue, Obama is lacking in a lot of other areas. Obama attended a racist anti-American "assembly" in Chicago for twenty years. Even Oprah was wise enough to leave the congregation. Obama's close friends and confidante's include admitted terrorists. Ayers and Dorhn are extremist radicals from the 1960’s anti-war terrorist group the Weather Underground, and they are unrepentant in the bombings they were a part of. They disappeared in 1970 after a bomb designed to kill army officers in New Jersey accidentally destroyed a Greenwich Village townhouse. They turned themselves over to authorities in 1980. While the Weather Underground claimed 25 bombings, these characters were never prosecuted. Charges were dropped due to improper FBI surveillance. Even today they remain proud of their violent past.
Obama while being born in America and having a white mother and black father doesn't describe himself as an American but as a Black man. Obama is far from a unifying figure and truly confused about what it is to be an American. If McCain were to hang out with David Duke(KKK member) or Osama Bin Laden(extreme terrorists appropriately compared to Ayers and Dorhn) he would not be the Republican candidate.
Not only is Obama's character flawed, his time in the senate could only be described as lackluster. Co-sponsoring one notable bill Senator Obama worked with Senator DeMint to introduce the Education Opportunity Act in the 109th Congress. This proposal would make grants available to low-income high school students to earn college credit at their local university or community college. Such grant support for high school students, who may not have exposure to college-level programs in their school, would allow students to qualify and earn credit for at least one college class each semester, giving them a greater chance for success on their path to a college diploma. This is note worthy, one of numerous education bills that have made its way through congress over the last 3 years. The presidents "No Child Left Behind Act" would be a grander law that was instituted that has vastly improved education. The point is in the last 1100 days what else has Obama been up to? Nothing, zero! Was he hot tubbing with Wright, or Chavez? We'll never know. What life experiences has he had that makes him capable of assuming the most powerful position on the planet? Like Hillary Clinton says, "McCain brings along a life time of experience and Obama brings a speech from 2002." Every candidate that comes to the public forum extols the "change" mantra, that doesn't make him special. What has made other candidates special are the things and experiences they've brought to the table. Truman brought his experiences in WWII, Reagan his experiences in the private sector and as Governor of California. Even Bill Clinton was the governor of Arkansas, Barak's resume is saddly lacking. When pressed for details on the war on terror, Barak says "we need a new strategy" when pressed on the high price of fuel he tells us to get a tune up and put air in our tires. Newer vehicles have emission monitoring equipment that wont allow a smog without a necessary tuneup and we've all driven vehicles with air pressure monitoring. Captain Obvious is apparently talking to the Amish.
In every circumstance under any scrutiny Barak is the agent of haphazard unspoken change. If we had a problem in our community and we needed to form a plan to address that problem I wouldn't vote for the "I'm going to pull a rabbit out of the hat guy" I would vote for the guy that describes in detail what they're going to do to address some issues that concern me. To really top off this "change" in discussion I would like to put everything into perspective. People are eating better, living longer, having shorter work weeks then ever before. We're exercising more, taking more vacations, and having more free time than any time in history. If you don't think that is true just look around you at all the people who have ample time to mourn about the downfall of our country with Dutch Bro's in hand, typing on their $1500 laptop while watching CNN on their $3500 flat screen TV's. Yeah really sucks huh, sounds like we need a huge change.......regardless of what that means.
get it while it's hot!...
I expect my last comment to get deleted...
I must go off for a second,
I just wonder if the recent trend in the "young" church going DNC on issues (and I am not a republican, but far from a democrat) is really that well thought out. For instance, are we really saying it’s not the governments job to prevent murder but on the other hand it is their job to protect the environment, give to the poor, supply health care, save for my retirement and educate my kids?
Now help me with the logic. We can't legislate morality on one issue, but must shove it down the throat on every other issue? Why is it the government’s moral duty to give me insurance and send my kids to school but not protect them if I want to kill them prior to them leaving the womb?
Or how is it we can give up that issue because the church should stop murder, but still expect programs to be extended by the government to feed the poor? Please tell me how things got so bassackwards in our thinking to come to this?
We rejected Jerry Falwell, so we baptized Donald Miller (or Mclaren or...). We traded in our fundamentalist Biblicism for a squishy pseudo-intellectual pomo liberalism. What we neglected in the mix was a historical confessionalism that doesn't let each generation drink from it's own cultural cistern and then import it into the church and call it "biblical".
The funniest part is how utterly "modern" the whole project is as it nods and sighs with all its pomo 'authenticity'. Hey look! The emperor has no clothes. It's still self-satisfied individualism birthed by the enlightenment project. And in 15 years what the church in Acts "really looked like" will look an awful lot like what the college kids and youth pastors of that time are into as well.
No thanks. Pass me the creeds, a confession, a prayer book and some bread and wine and let me forget about myself for an hour. End rant here.
Rev. Jesse Pirschel
Providence Presbyterian Church
Temecula, California
juan,
i agree that obama is off-base in a lot of areas. my only focus was his total disregard for the life of the unborn...i would even go as far as to say he is callous to the issue.
Josh... I wasn't speaking against you.. just adding some PERSPECTIVE in the other "characteristics" of Obama... and trust me... there's a ton more.
Dan..
what do you think about Obama's foreign policy, health care approach, education, immigration? or his VP pick Joe Biden?
I only ask Dan.... because this is his blog.
Josh.. I also have some disagreements with McCain as well... I try to always be fair and balanced.... But I'll save that for a blog..
"What we neglected in the mix was a historical confessionalism that doesn't let each generation drink from it's own cultural cistern and then import it into the church and call it "biblical".
that is incredible...
props to Rev. Jesse..
i realize that the issue of abortion is a rough one. i just can't wrap my head around the idea that it can be pushed aside.
josh- because it can't be pushed aside. it is the proverbial elephant in the room.
Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members.~Pearl S. Buck (1892-1973), My Several Worlds [1954].
The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children.
~Dietrich Bonhoeffer
"...the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. " ~ Last Speech of Hubert H. Humphrey
"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Ghandi
"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members -- the last, the least, the littlest."
~Cardinal Roger Mahony, In a 1998 letter, Creating a Culture of Life
The greatness of America is in how it treats its weakest members: the elderly, the infirm, the handicapped, the underprivileged, the unborn. ~Bill Federer
"A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members and among the most vulnerable are surely the unborn and the dying,"
~Pope John Paul II
We will be "JUDGED" on the basis of how treat the unborn. It is an unpopular word these days...but it should strike the fear of God in us.
"and on the count of 3 lets all finish our prayer and pray to whatever deity, lifeforce, colour, moviestar, material possession, money or whatever else floats your boat."
priceless...
:)
Josh
Joel Hunter, the man with the "1, 2, 3" pick a deity prayer is an Orlando pastor of a 'huge' church (one of the first multi-site deals). He actually taught at RTS Orlando at a time, and now on this stage, at this time...wow. Sad indeed.
i thought it was a missed opportunity. he played the "PC card". many liberal democrats are extremely ANTI christian. read the numerous blogs...listen to the cnn spokehole journalists ramble on about how "those conservative christians" continue to ruin our enlightened, God-less, free thinking society. here is a man who should have just gone up there and prayed like he normally would. instead we get a paraphrase (minus abortion and gay marriage) of the democratic party platform in prayer form and we get a humanistic/pseudo ecumenical finish. he is a christian...pray IN JESUS NAME and let all of the atheistic democrats in that arena suck it up for 3 seconds.
maybe i am being harsh...i don't know the man...i don't know where he is at...but we, as christians, DO NOT PRAY in anyones name but Jesus'...and if we are asked to pray we should do so like we would anywhere else. i doubt he ends his sermons with "on the count of 3 you can end our service this sunday with a shout-out to whatever "god" you will serve this week. maybe it's a golden statue? maybe it's john mccain? maybe you are going to worship your collection of prada purses? pray to that..."
pardon my rant.
It's a shame that we have to teach our brothers and sisters that should have already had insight on all this....
Juan,
don't get a big head, but YOU rock! You are a commenter on this blog who speaks with intellect. I PRAISE GOD that you question some of the liberal FILTH that arises or is often referred to (e.g. a pro-abortion Pres. being no big deal). Your most pertinent questions never seem to be answered by people to whom you pose them. Hmm. Interesting.
Will THIS get deleted?!
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